xMDK

[TronFAQ]

X originally had this idea a long time ago and was working on something back then. I was going to do something similar with the planned version 2.0 of REZ Handler. But, frankly, there simply wasn't enough interest so all these plans were dropped.

It will be interesting to see where X takes this.

[Cybernaught]

Aloha Programs,

It's been a while since last I posted anything here. I've been watching from the wings to see if there are any interesting developments in the work you folks are doing, and this xMDK, and the potential for an updated version of dEdit looks like a very interesting development indeed.

But it begs a question: Once these tools are available, what then? Could they be put to use in creating an online, "TRONverse", or something?

What I am imagining here is a series of MP TRON Maps that collectively represent the Internet, with individual "Systems" being equivalent to individual "buildings" in each of the maps, and each map is representative of the digital life of a real-world city. Each map is hosted on a different server, and each server is password protected so that only those who have learned the "Access Codes" can enter that digital "NetCity". Players would acquire these passwords through one of two ways: 1) Ask a server admin for the password, which would only be granted if the player in question is new to the TRONverse, or 2) search for the Access Codes within the maps themselves. These would be located in hard to find emails hidden somewhere in each map (and protected by System Security Protocols like ICP's, etc.) Thus a player would have to successfully navigate one map to discover the Access Codes to other, adjacent maps. Because these maps do not allow us to export character development stats, a further dimension to this TRONverse could be a centralized website (like LDSO!) where players can create their TRON character, and watch him/her grow/improve by entering "patch codes" found throughout the maps that will unlock specific updates to their character profile (like a progressive version number similar to the one Jet has in 2.0).

That's the basic idea, and it would require a load of coordination between map makers to implement. I suggest this idea to you folks, because there needs to be something driving your efforts or you will lose interest at some point (as TRONfaq mentioned).

I unfortunately am no Modder. So all I can do is point the way, and help flesh out the vision. I hope this post gives you folks useful food for thought.

[xistence]

To answer your question: the concept of tools are, that tools are not dedicated to a specific project, they are ment to build content. You can do, whatever you can imagine AND what you can achieve using such tools. So in case you want to build an MMO, and the tools might help you, well, that would be cool. The tools themself won't be already a technical solution to build anything like what you mentioned, but maybe they can help.

Creating a sort of MMO game (Massively Multiplay Online) is something that can't be achieved with the Tron2.0 engine (Jupiter) directly, especially not with the source code (a well known problem). As with my Diu-Project, i tried to define a base for something like a MMO.

Choosing the right technical platform is the huge challenge (feature set, costs, support, scalability, etc.). You're idea sounds intresting to me, definitely worth to be further checked, although there are some flaws already, and finding a solution will take some work.

You might not be a modder, but you could, as example, support in creating a more specific concept about what you have metioned. I would like to hear some more about this idea.

[Cybernaught]

Thanks for your response X.

Technically, the game wouldn't be Massively Multiplayer. Each NetCity is a map being hosted on a different computer, and the format would be either Derez, or Team Derez which I believe allows up to 16 players at a time? Anyway, the way this set up ends up hosting more than 16 players is by dividing them up between the various Net City maps. Not the most elegant of solutions I know, but like you said, you must work within the framework of the game as provided. My guess is that there aren't a terribly huge number of us die-hard TRON 2.0 fans out here anymore, so 16 players per host server will probably suffice.

To flesh out the idea a little more, I envision PvP happening as players run into each other, but the maps would be of such size and configuration that a player could go a long time without running into anyone other than PvE Programs (unless they specifically go looking for trouble).

The basic outline for a Net City map would include a Residential Section comprised of house-like PC's clustered together in ISP nodes, a seperating wall or chasm of some kind that players will need to figure a way to get across into the Local Small Business Sector, where the buildings are a bit larger, have ICP protection, and simple 1- or 2- Permission Set entry ports (these PSets would be gathered primarily from patrolling ICP's core dumps so as to provide a continually renewable source for players to get them from. I believe this is possible in Multiplayer by creating AI Templates for the ICP's and then rerezzing them into the map at respawn points?)
Within these small business servers would be the lower end varieties of Subroutines and Patch Coded emails as well as Build Notes and other triggers that improve the Players' Version Number.

Once they have improved themselves enough, they can move on to the heart of the Map which is the Corporate/Government Sector, where the servers look like large buildings and skyscrapers. These would have tougher security protocols and require more Permissions to penetrate, and once in, the player would seek out the better varities of Subroutines and self-improvement scripts, emails, etc.
The biggest prizes would be finding the emails that contain the Access Codes (passwords) to other adjacent TRONverse Map servers, allowing them to expand their reach across the Internet. By "adjacent", I mean the maps would be designed so that they mirror the reality of the real-world cities they intend to portray in the digital universe, so as an example, the map for San Fransisco could be said to be adjacent to the maps representing Honolulu, L.A., Las Vegas and Portland. As a result, players could expect to find the Access Codes for those Net Cities, and ONLY those codes somewhere in the San Fran Map. If they want to acquire the Access Code for London, they would first need to successfully make their way across the U.S. to the New York, Montreal or Washington D.C. Grids where they might expect to find the code for London, etc.

As you can see, the number of maps that this project could inspire would be quite large, keeping you designers busy for a while! ( I hope that is seen as a positive goal!)

Finally, what brings this all together is the central website where the players keep a permanent record of their TRONverse characters. Once set up properly, it would allow the players to enter the Patch and Access Codes they've acquired, and the more of these they can enter, the higher the player's ranking in the community will climb. As an incentive for player participation, Server Admins could hold competitions and award prizes to those players who achieve and hold the top rankings for a set period of time. I'm just brainstorming here, but you get the idea.

All in all, this would be a fairly massive undertaking, and the design of the maps and the placement of items in those maps would have to be well thought out to keep it balanced and challenging. As a specific plug to you X, this could serve as either a stepping stone, or a baseline for your DIU project. Well I hope that something like this is doable, especially if the new tools make Map making easier for people to do.

[deeahchur]

Starting with the bad news: polycount limit and map size (40k polies); immediate detriment to this undertaking.

I posed some similar thoughts with regards to the YCP map set I am VERY slowly working on, and there was talk about it on the UserError thread, I believe. At least so far with YCP, just trying to make repeated geometry for arrays quickly increased file size, without adding complex content, such as animations or interactive elements. Given that, Sectors could be implemented, but the maps would be smaller.

I like the idea of locating hidden data that allows access to other Networks (maps), but implementation could be difficult. Password access to the maps is all well and good, but we wouldn't want to implement this too heavily, as we are already experiencing a severely inactive populace -- on that alone, you're right, it might take a while to interact with another active Program/User.

In order to make use of this idea, we really would need to use an alternative base platform, options of which have been discussed. I'll add a post later with links to related posts, or suggest a redirection to the post.

Back at ya, Cybernaught, our discussion from before!
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1000&p=9714&hilit=MMO#p9363" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'll definitely assist with brainstorming for even a quasi-MMO TRONverse.

FYI, Blender has a game platform integrated into its base programming, a little nugget that is often forgotten.

[Cybernaught]

Hey Deeahchur,

Glad to see I wasn't completely forgotten!

Anyway, thanks for the info on poly count limits. That's the kind of stuff that I have no clue about until someone more technically savvy than myself tells me about it.

Well, I presume that the map makers here are already aware of these limits, and would take them into account when making Net City Maps? Some of the MP maps I've seen were pretty big and involved, so I want to hope that its still possible, if not as big as I may have originally envisioned it to be.

I am personally unfamilliar with any previous discussion that may have taken place regarding the use of an alternative platform (by this I presume you mean a different game engine than the Jupiter Engine used for TRON 2.0?) My philosophy is: whatever works! Keep in mind that I've ressurected this idea because the development of a Map Making Kit, plus a newer dEdit platform sounded to me like a promising development that would allow larger, more sophisticated maps to be made.

[xistence]

My philosophy is: whatever works!

Exactly the basic thought for the most, but in the end it will bite you in the a$$ .
I do programming and devloping since the last 20 years, i also developed two game engines myself. From that point of view:
If you start anything that would include community work OR if you start a project that has some proper size, this way would be a no go. A lot of things have to be took care about: feature set of the engine, support, tools, scalability, stability, distribution and some more.
Starting an idea too plain will just result in 300% more work as you have always to migrate your stuff already done, just to fit it to new circumstances and a (possible) new technical environment, as you realized that the older one wasn't enough.

We already had some discussions about possible new platforms: UT3, Sandbox3, something like DarkBasic, CrystalSpace, etc. The bad thing is: the learning curve is steep! And most would like to see such stuff to be finished by others, so they are just waiting, watching, but this won't work. And another point is, that you can't start a project with some complexity, if you have not a good concept and plan. Working out of the stomach will just result in several 'tiny', unfinished projects, and in the end this means an end for a possible mod, map or total conversion.

Even i wasn't able to finished my projects, not because i was be lazy, or that i loose my stuff all the time due to HD-crashes, no it is just life coming in your way every now and then. Another thing you have to take into the calculation.

I wouldn't say that an idea as yours won't have a chance. It is just that things must fit (concept, plan, etc.), (enough) people willing to constantly contribute and it should be taken as something serious. If these things match, even some of the biggest projects can have a choice.

About your concept/idea:
There are some unclear things/downsides: beside of the polycount which was already named, i'm not really sure about the password locking, because people can share these passwords, and as long you're not creating two part passwords (not possible in game tho), this won't last very long. Another thing is how to store the advancement of player, if might result from PvP matches or whereever; and how to bring the in game or getting them out of there.
Creating a 'network' of maps might be some start, but it should be cleared how to host them (or actually who), because otherwise you won't be able to visit a specific map, you would have to wait for the map rotation.
Maybe some things need to be cut down, and step by step it must be evalulated what could be done as next.


Lots of text... done.

[HangmanEXE]

I have to agree with X here. It is a VERY [VERY] interesting concept. But your best best today for a GOOD endgame. Would most likely be to use the New open Unreal Engine; which also TRON Evolution uses; and then build outward if one could acquire the source material for TRON evolution and a few other newer UNREAL engine built games and combine them to cover as many bases as possible.
If not, your looking at a project of such size that it would require a very close communicating team all operating on the same desired end goals.

But your main problems are that such a big project like what your thinking about here Cyber is its a multiple year project, plus the main problem is that making a new big scale game using the TRON world is [GOING] to attract some attention from Disney at which your most likely to be ordered to stop given Disneys attitude to outside Disney work. Best case, you loose team members due to frustration due to the long term nature of the build of the project.

I honestly just dont see enough ppl here; at least still talking about modding; to see it as feasible at least right now. Maybe once the Unreal engine becomes a little simpler for the public to build with, then possibly alot more builders an modders would jump on-board this project ti help you.

So my advice would be to hang onto it, as its a VERY [VERY] interesting idea. Dont let it go!

An if you dont want to wait. You could start messing around with the free to download UNREAL builder and start working now yourself.

But my BEST advice I could EVER give cyber is start messing around with your project yourself NOW!
Putter... putter... putter in what you want to use as the medium for the game. You will learn ALOT as you just go along making mistakes and doing it hands on yourself.

[xistence]

Update.

Currently there are about > 140 prefabs already. Textures are not fancy so far, details where i care about in a later step.



The stuff in 'action'...



Out.

[HangmanEXE]

[DOES "HUGE" SPIT-TAKE]

Convulses from visual fun-gasm,

OMG X!!!!

Thats OUTSTANDING work.... an your worried about textures?!??! DUDE! Thats INCREDIBLE looking work! What I love the most about this is your mixture of legacy's style with the classic movie. Your items have the style of legacy but color schemes of the original!

[golf clap for X everyone]

So how many ppl here will also be adding there own TRON materials to the program for ppl to share? I will [AS FAST AS I CAN]!
From what X is showing an I understand it sounds as tho we could all contribute files for ppl to download from us. Am I right there X?

...gonna be SOOO COOL! OOT!

[deeahchur]

I must say that is some superb work! It is hard to believe that you're using DEdit, what with the smoothness of it all! That must have taken a LONG time to build! I hope you have saved backups!

What is the file size on that awesomeness?!

Can it support more than one player?

That is the level of map making I would love to have!

[xistence]

From what X is showing an I understand it sounds as tho we could all contribute files for ppl to download from us. Am I right there X?

Well, everyone can already share his/her stuff already. But if you point to the app i'm working on, using for the xMDK, there might be a few points to understand:
- It would need a huge space to store all the stuff, right now the content i created, has an uncompressed size of about 1 gig (mainly because of the textures, which are not optimized/compressed yet)
- my app supports one server to pull content from. To implement multiple server support, this would need much more time to develop, and so will come later. But this also mean: the current space i have for that is just has 1 gig of space. I can't put just any content there, so initially the xMDK stuff i created will be there
- xMDK cames along with very precise definitions of styles and standards, something some pps don't like as they can't or won't like to follow. But to have a useful, modular, scaelable and, at least, fleixble set of elements, which can be combined in several way, contributers for the xMDK would need to follow these standards. I wouldn't have the time to verify every bit, but there is no technical way right now, to that either. A problem to be solved, if stuff should be direct part of the xMDK
- There is no sort of 'uploading' interface for the app, i use for the xMDK. It would need the double of the time to implement that, because many things needs to be check, so that it is not possible to abuse this app as sort of filehoster or to put stuff there that isn't allowed.

A lot of things are already prepared (so like namespaces for contributers), so later it should act to catch up the stuff from several modders/mapmakers. So to summarize this up:
- Your content, you want to have, should be relatively final, a lot of tiny changes all the time, would also mean a lot of reviews from my side if it is clean and free from errors. This will take time, so it won't be updated in a snap right now
- Your content can't be x gig in size, and i won't have the time to optimize it. So, if it is too hugh, i would have to reject it
- Right now there is no option to upload it specifically somewhere. I have to grab and include it manually, this also eats up time

So there are a few things to be cleared, and this won't happen to soon. Afterwards a lot of things might become more easier, but we have to see how well this all turns out in the first line. On the other side, you can already share the stuff, and if i wan't to include any sort of prefab, i'll come back to the author anyway to request the authorization for that. Just take care the prefab is some sort of 'finished', otherwise i can't pick it.

That must have taken a LONG time to build!

Totally about 4 weeks, in hours about 20-30 spreaded over these weeks. I can't spend that much time.

What is the file size on that awesomeness?!

All together and in its 'raw' state (uncompressed textures, etc.): about 1 gig.

Can it support more than one player?

There is no limit basically. But if you mean interactive stuff like teleoprts, etc. : yes, already laid out that it should be usable for MP/SP. If not, this would be marked somehow.

[deeahchur]

That all sounds very fair, X, and I can certainly understand the limitation with storage space.

Have you considered Cloud storage? That is probably more complicated.

High standards are to be expected.

Modular. I can work with that, especially since that is the way I have been working with YCP.

Finished work, yeah, that's usually an issue for me. If I work modularly, though, I can complete parts and make that job easier. I usually have difficulty finishing the final product. If nothing else, this is a good reason to work more carefully and specifically towards final products.

YCP is going to seem so bland compared to your work, X.

[Cybernaught]

But your main problems are that such a big project like what your thinking about here Cyber is its a multiple year project, plus the main problem is that making a new big scale game using the TRON world is [GOING] to attract some attention from Disney at which your most likely to be ordered to stop given Disneys attitude to outside Disney work. Best case, you loose team members due to frustration due to the long term nature of the build of the project.

Hi Guys,

Yeah, what I am envisioning is a big project, and it would take a long time to complete (and in truth, it may never actually be complete in the fullest sense of that word, since new Net City maps could continue to be added over time as map maker's complete their work and start their own game servers). So if this idea is to be pursued at all, it would have to begin by making the first map as a baseline for other contributors, and grow from there.

I never thought of this project as something that could attract Disney's (unwanted) attention, and to be honest, I'm still pretty skeptical that it would ever turn into something big enough to do that, but who knows? All I can say is that I hope it won't, but that consideration will not prevent me from sharing my thoughts with you folks about how to use the skillz and tools at your disposal in creative and interesting ways.

You are all familliar with the Jupiter Engine's technical limitations, and everything you guys decide to build will have to take these into account, which will probably mean that the maps will not be as expansive as I originally envisioned them to be. But there is also the limitations that come with the game formats (Light Cycle, Disc and Derez), and the most annoying of these limitations is that you can't connect the individual maps together into a larger whole, which is what my idea about connecting Net City maps via passwords found in the game was attempting to get around. There is also the limitation that the game formats are static, so unless you intend to use your maps strictly for the arena-style PvP as originally intended (which I feel has played itself out by now), you have to come up with your own method of creating a sense of Player purpose for being there. I thought that trying to focus your talents on the goal of creating a series of maps that would be connected together by a common theme (in this case, the theme of a virtual TRON-based Internet for Players' to explore) would provide that needed sense of purpose, which would then spark greater player interest in your work, which would then spur you folks on to doing more of it, revitalizing the TRON gaming community, etc., etc.

I would love to see something like this galvinizing your collective talents toward a common end, but its an idea that you have to want to buy into. I offer it to you freely out of great respect for the dedication that you've all shown thus far to this particular genre of sci-fi gaming. Let me know if you want to pursue it, and I will do my best to help develop the game elements that need to be incorporated into the maps so that they are fun and challenging to play.

[Cybernaught]

About your concept/idea:
... i'm not really sure about the password locking, because people can share these passwords, and as long you're not creating two part passwords (not possible in game tho), this won't last very long. Another thing is how to store the advancement of player, if might result from PvP matches or whereever; and how to bring the in game or getting them out of there.

Certainly, we cannot control what player's choose to do with the game format we attempt to give them. If they cheat, they cheat, but in reality, they are only robbing themselves of part of the fun by doing so. Even if people manage to gain access to the maps through ill-gotten methods, they would still need to conquer each map's challenges in order to acquire the patch codes that would be used at the central website to build their character profiles. And ultimately, who cares if some choose to cheat? It won't reduce the fun I have in climbing to the top, now will it? Remember, this is all intended to give players something worth striving for while playing the game. I think most of us who still play TRON 2.0 are mature enough to respect that, and would realize we are only hurting our own self-image by cheating.

Creating a 'network' of maps might be some start, but it should be cleared how to host them (or actually who), because otherwise you won't be able to visit a specific map, you would have to wait for the map rotation.
Maybe some things need to be cut down, and step by step it must be evalulated what could be done as next.

Yes, this is an important issue with this project. I'll be honest, I'm not sure what the best solution for this would be, but if map makers could also be encouraged to become map hosters (each for his own map of course), then it may not turn out to be as big a problem as it might otherwise become. I'd love to hear what others more net-savvy than myself might come up with to address this issue though.