[LDSO] Tron 2.0 Forum

Greetings Programs, Users, and A.I.’s of the digital world!

I have been an avid player & fan of Tron 2.0 for the PC since shortly after it was released. I have installed and re-installed this game on every computer I’ve owned over the last seven or eight years. I was one of those kids in the eighties who loved the original movie, and the writings of William Gibson (Neuromancer, etc.), and was deeply intrigued by the concept of Net Running as set forth in the Cyberpunk RPG that soon followed. When Tron 2.0 came out, I saw in its sleek depiction of the digital world the very place I imagined my Netrunner character was visiting when going ‘Online’. Because of my love for plot-driven gameplay, and character development, I played the single player aspect of the game mostly and didn’t get into the multiplayer aspects very much (I tried it a few times, but became bored with it pretty quickly due its lack of storyline).

Anyway, fast forward to just a month ago, and it finally dawned on me, “I know there are Modding communities out there for many older games, so why not look and see if there is a specifically Tron-based one?” And Vwalla! Here you guys are!

At this point I must be frank… I am by no means a Modder myself. As much as I would love to translate my own ideas into cool maps & mods like User Error and KillerApp, I just don’t have the skillz or the time needed to dedicate to such things (I am after all a middle-aged man, working shift-work, trying to raise a family, etc.) Be this as it may, I am very interested in learning what the limits of game design are with the Tron 2.0 platform, to see whether or not any of my ideas could be translated into “virtual reality”. So I’ve played the mods, and explored some of the multiplayer maps (fabulous work BTW), and I’m fiddling with the Tron Tools (DEdit, tutorials, etc.) in order to get a feel for what it is you guys do, and what I’ve learned is that it is a monumental task bringing an interesting map/mod to life, so my humble hat is off to you guys for what you have done and are continuing to do. Perhaps the only real contribution I might be able to make is in the area of writing grammatically correct English in whatever capacity that may be useful to any of you (more for mods than maps I’d presume – not to criticize, but the writers of the dialog in User Error really could have benefitted from my talents in this respect). In any case, feel free to send me stuff for review if you’re not sure how it ought to look or how certain thoughts should flow when written.

So to help set the tone for the kind of conversation I’d be interested in having with you folks, let me end this intro with a few open-ended questions: Is it possible to create a multi-player map that incorporates story/mission-driven elements as seen in the single-player game, like character development and/or goal setting? What are the hard limits on importing single-player game elements into your multi-player maps (example: could 2-way Data Streams be used in a multi-player map as, “televators”)? Is it possible to “save” the current state of a player’s avatar at certain points during a multiplayer session in order to preserve achievements accomplished during that session?

Nice meeting you all, and I look forward to reading your replies!

Greetings Program

First off, Greetings & Welcome Cybernaught! Its always nice to meet more tron fans. Feel free to browse/search the posts here at LDSO forums. There are many MIGHTY tidbits of TRON or modding info to be found here.

Secondly, as to your Multiplayer map Q... I "highly" advise sending a msg to FAQ, X, Zook, or any one of the LDSO moderators here as they are ALL masters with Dedit.

I look forward to seeing you around the forums.

Hangman.EXE

Be welcome, every fan or creative mind will find a place here, so will you.

Cybernaught wrote:I am after all a middle-aged man, working shift-work, trying to raise a family, etc.

Well, you're not alone, several pps here have a proper age like this (i'm 36).

Cybernaught wrote:I am by no means a Modder myself. As much as I would love to translate my own ideas into cool maps & mods like User Error and KillerApp, I just don’t have the skillz or the time needed to dedicate to such things

We all were at this point once, it is just a question what your major instrests are, and if you are willing to spend the time. If not, don't mind, why doing things you're are not really wanting to do? In the end, if you have questions, be sure that we'll try to help as good as we can.

Cybernaught wrote:Perhaps the only real contribution I might be able to make is in the area of writing grammatically correct English in whatever capacity that may be useful to any of you

Every help is appreciated. Even i could always need help in translation, for some of my projects (like Diu), as i'm german and very bad in using english at all.

Cybernaught wrote:Is it possible to create a multi-player map that incorporates story/mission-driven elements as seen in the single-player game, like character development and/or goal setting? What are the hard limits on importing single-player game elements into your multi-player maps (example: could 2-way Data Streams be used in a multi-player map as, “televators”)

Yes and no, it very depends on each single element. Maybe you can go into details what you're trying to achieve. Same goes with the point about how much work it might be.

Cybernaught wrote:Is it possible to “save” the current state of a player’s avatar at certain points during a multiplayer session in order to preserve achievements accomplished during that session?

As far as i know the Jupiter engine: no.

Hi Cybernaught, welcome to our forum.

Cybernaught wrote:Is it possible to create a multi-player map that incorporates story/mission-driven elements as seen in the single-player game, like character development and/or goal setting? What are the hard limits on importing single-player game elements into your multi-player maps (example: could 2-way Data Streams be used in a multi-player map as, “televators”)? Is it possible to “save” the current state of a player’s avatar at certain points during a multiplayer session in order to preserve achievements accomplished during that session?

X already gave excellent answers. So the only things I'll add are:

The only things really stopping anyone from creating story/mission Multiplayer maps, are the same reasons stopping people from doing Single Player maps. They're hard to create, and to make fun. It takes a lot of time and careful planning. Most of us can't dedicate ourselves to such an undertaking and get it done within a reasonable amount of time. User Error, with all the team members' time spent put together, probably totaled about 3 years worth of work.

Naturally, a single mission-oriented MP map won't take as long as the 16 SP maps in a campaign like User Error. But it's still a difficult undertaking. Much more difficult than a standard MP map.

There are also certain limits on what you can take from SP and put in an MP map. Most of the features and functions work, but not all of them. (Specifically in the case of Data Streams, I used the same ones from the SP game in the secret room of my CTB2_TDM map.)

As X said, if you can be more specific about what you have in mind, we'll be able to better answer your inquiries.

Welcome to the domain!

Welcome, and here's to the old geezers who can still click a mouse

Hi guys,

Thanks for the warm welcome. I just lost the post I was going to submit due to the webpage expiring on me while I was writing it. It was fairly long, so I'm feeling pretty discouraged right about now. I know about the common technique of copying posts to clip board before submitting them to avoid this dilemma, but for whatever reason, I just didn't remember to do that when I should have. I don't have the mental fortitude to try and rewrite it all again. Sorry about that. Maybe next time.

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OK, take two:
What I had imagined seeing done was using the Tron 2.0 game editor to create a Virtual Internet for Netrunners to play around in. If you recall from my first post, a Netrunner is a cybernetic super-hacker type of character (literally a “digital wizard”) popularized in the CyberPunk RPG. I had thought, how cool would it be to log onto a game server that was running a VirtuNet Map, in which I begin in my own cybermodem staging area, which connects to the local city grid where I can test my skillz against the data fortresses of local corporate/government servers, and if I score some good info (emails) or warez (subroutines), I can sell it to an Online Black Market Operative (a Program, or NPC User you have to locate) for cred (build points). And once I’ve beefed up my skills (levels) enough, I’ll go nation-wide (hit other city grids), and then, international (via satellite uplinks).

But having begun to learn the limitations of the Jupiter engine, it’s seems much less likely that this can be adequately realized. It hadn’t dawned on me that there were no build points in Multiplayer, or use of the subroutine inventory management screen found in the Single player game, etc. I had envisioned it as a Sandbox style persistent world, but now I see that it would require multiple servers to host such an environment, and I’m pretty sure that there is no way to perform in-game transfers from one game server to another (is there?)

But I’ll still put it out there for consideration: If anyone wants to help brainstorm ways of making something like this work, feel free to expound on it here. If so, I can provide further details on the game mechanics/designs I’d use to build such a world. Of particular concern in this would be finding a means by which to make character data persist from session to session. If the consensus is that the only way to do this is to make it a series of Single Player Maps, I’m interested in hearing about those ideas too.

Happy Holidays.

Cybernaught wrote:use of the subroutine inventory management screen

There is, it just has to be activated by a MSG, as just the key binding is surpressed in Multiplayer.

Cybernaught wrote:that there were no build points in Multiplayer

There are, they can be added by MSG as well (like by a Trigger-Object). You could even spend BuildPoints in the InventoryScreen in Multiplayer, as in Singleplayer.

Cybernaught wrote:persistent world

If you are mentioning storing individual data for a player (locally or on server): not possible.

Cybernaught wrote:in-game transfers from one game server to another (is there?)

No, senior.

Cybernaught wrote:to make character data persist from session to session

Not in multiplayer.

Cybernaught wrote:If the consensus is that the only way to do this is to make it a series of Single Player Maps, I’m interested in hearing about those ideas too.

Ideas might be there a lot. But it is on yourself to decide if you really want to do this step, and if the Tron2.0 engine will be suitable enough for your project. We're open for any ideas, and we sure have enough own ideas.

I was also thinking of doing something like this on my YCP maps, but I was going to go a simpler route, though my ambitions are the same as yours.

If each map were run separately and persistently, a major endeavor in itself, then large explorable maps are somewhat possible, well, to the extent of map/game crashing, anyway. Hearing from X saying subroutines AND buildnote management is possible in MP, then upon entering the sector (map), each player could be allocated a certain number of buildnotes and/or certain base subroutines to install. Additional subs and build notes could be located around the map. FAQ has already worked out a way in which subs will not respawn (reference Capture the Bit), so limitations can be set in place.

Wacky idea for granting certain subs at entry. Maybe include a string that is playername specific, and if "yes", then grant subs? Just a thought, though I know that would be time-consuming to have to update very often, even if it is able to check an external file with just that info set.

I have some thoughts on MPing SP arenas for disc dueling, but it will take trust on the part of the Users.
1) If the arena is a 1 vs 1, then two teleport triggers, one for each User/player, which sends the contestant to a specific start point. The arena would already have the exit point (another teleport) and would already be accessible to either/both duelists, so that's the trust part in hopes they don't "bow out early" without consent. Then when the victor derezzes the opponent, they ca proceed through the exit teleporter, winning a point of MP score for themselves/their team and not have to derez themselves to exit the arena, thus losing the win thy just earned.
2) If doubles/multiples, then more than 1 teleport trigger to enter, but the same shared teleport exit.
Just my thoughts on that, anyway.

Very interesting. Thanks X for your clarifications on what can and cannot be done in MP.

So a player can accumulate Build points during a session, but they couldn’t keep them from one game session to another, correct? On a related subject: Can your current Version Number be displayed in the upper left-hand corner of the screen in MP as it is in SP? If not, when could a player see it?

X, could you elaborate further on what you meant when you said that build points can be “spent” in MP as in SP? I do not recall seeing this in SP. Is it possible that you are confusing build points (what you get from Build Notes and completing certain tasks) with the points a player gets to allocate towards improving Health, Energy, Weapon Effciency, etc. upon gaining a version upgrade? If you actually do mean that players can spend build points (which should lower their version number), that is actually a very good development for what I had in mind, as it would allow build points to become a true form of currency in the game, letting players buy items from NPC’s as well as selling to them. But if this is possible, it brings up another question: are the build points lost (i.e. reset to zero) upon achieving a new upgrade? It’s not a bad thing if that is so, I just want to make sure I understand the ramifications correctly.

With regard to the Subroutine Management Screen (SMS), could the trigger that activates the SMS be linked to an in-game control panel? (This would allow the player a sufficient degree of control over when and where they access it in MP). I am imagining information kiosks strewn about the city grid as the places where this would happen. Would this work?

Is it possible to place Subroutine (and email) Item Nodes in Archive Bins in MP? So far, I’ve only seen Permission Item Nodes in an Archive Bin in MP. As I envision it, a VirtuNet Map would not use the normal multiplayer method of acquiring subroutines (i.e. running into their icons).

Speaking of Permissions, would it be possible to take away permissions from a player when used? I’m trying to figure out how to make it more difficult for Netrunners to bust into servers and such. If each use of a permission were a one-shot deal, it would make it necessary for players to re-acquire new permissions to enter new systems/bins, etc. Also, can the permission set on one side of an access point be different from the permission set needed when passing through the same point in the opposite direction? This is important because, if you take away a player’s permissions after use, then they won’t be able to get out the same way they got in. In these cases, I would set the permission set to null on the side that leads out.

What about the need to perform a subroutine reconfiguration upon entering a new system? Can this be triggered as well? Here I’m imagining that when a Netrunner enters a “building”, they are moving off of the Net, and into the server mainframe the building represents – a new system. In SP, this activity was performed at the beginning of many levels, but in MP, it would need to occur at entry/exit points of buildings with playable interiors since the inside of the building is still part of the same map as the exterior. This would be accomplished by a trigger linked to the entrance somehow (perhaps the area of the floor in front of the doorway?)

Would it be possible to create item counters that would allow a player to hold multiple copies of an item (subroutine or permission)? For game mechanical purposes, they would still only have one, but if another of the same type is acquired, a counter gets incremented, and similarly if one is lost, the counter decrements. This would allow players to accumulate multiple permissions of the same kind so that they don’t have to immediately go hunting for their next set before moving on, and it would make downloading subroutines the player already has worthwhile since they can sell them later for build points without sacrificing the copy they are currently using (and yes I realize that there would actually need to be three counters for each type of subroutine, since they all come in Alpha, Beta, and Gold builds).

In User Error, there was one conversation that involved a choice between two options, which consequently lead to alternate paths in the game. Can similar "dialog trees" be used in MP to govern the interaction between players and NPC's?

Well, my thinker is starting to overheat. Til next time…

Cybernaught wrote:So a player can accumulate Build points during a session, but they couldn’t keep them from one game session to another, correct?

Correct.

Can your current Version Number be displayed in the upper left-hand corner of the screen in MP as it is in SP?

No, the build points can't be permanently on display in MP. But you can have a brief text message appear to let the player know his build point score, whenever it changes.

X, could you elaborate further on what you meant when you said that build points can be “spent” in MP as in SP? I do not recall seeing this in SP. Is it possible that you are confusing build points (what you get from Build Notes and completing certain tasks) with the points a player gets to allocate towards improving Health, Energy, Weapon Effciency, etc. upon gaining a version upgrade?

I believe this is what he thought you meant. While build points can be added to a player's score, there's no provision to take them away again.

With regard to the Subroutine Management Screen (SMS), could the trigger that activates the SMS be linked to an in-game control panel?

Yes.

Is it possible to place Subroutine (and email) Item Nodes in Archive Bins in MP?

It's possible, yes. In fact, it's been done on at least a couple of MP maps already.

Speaking of Permissions, would it be possible to take away permissions from a player when used?

Don't believe so. Like with build points, once they're acquired there's no provision to take them away again.

Also, can the permission set on one side of an access point be different from the permission set needed when passing through the same point in the opposite direction?

Yes, this can be done. Each side can have a switch that needs different permissions.

What about the need to perform a subroutine reconfiguration upon entering a new system? Can this be triggered as well?

Yes, though no one has ever tried reconfiguring subroutines while in multiplayer, to this point. In theory, it should work. But it needs to be tested.

This would be accomplished by a trigger linked to the entrance somehow (perhaps the area of the floor in front of the doorway?)

Correct.

Would it be possible to create item counters that would allow a player to hold multiple copies of an item (subroutine or permission)? For game mechanical purposes, they would still only have one, but if another of the same type is acquired, a counter gets incremented, and similarly if one is lost, the counter decrements. This would allow players to accumulate multiple permissions of the same kind so that they don’t have to immediately go hunting for their next set before moving on, and it would make downloading subroutines the player already has worthwhile since they can sell them later for build points without sacrificing the copy they are currently using (and yes I realize that there would actually need to be three counters for each type of subroutine, since they all come in Alpha, Beta, and Gold builds).

This could get very complicated. But yes, in theory, this would be possible.

In User Error, there was one conversation that involved a choice between two options, which consequently lead to alternate paths in the game. Can similar "dialog trees" be used in MP to govern the interaction between players and NPC's?

Yes, I did dialogue trees in the secret room of my CTB_TDM Derez map. The only problem, is that customizing the text turns your map into a mod instead. Then everyone needs to be running the same mod - including the server, too - or else they cannot play against each other.

msg acquirepset [permission set number | all]
set the permissions.

msg managesubs
call SMS (for example via Trigger).

msg resetinventory
reset your stuff.

msg setsystemconfig
not tested by myself, if you can use it in MP, but might be possible.

msg addbuildpoints [int-value]
msg setbuildpoints [int-value]
you could 'remove' buildpoints as you set them via 'setbuildpoints' to a lower absolute value as the current one. But for that, you would need to know the current value.

msg setenergy [int-value]
msg sethitpoints [int-value]
exactly what it says.

Sorry if i don't get into detail about all of your questions right now, had a 12 hour working day, and so being completely *tilt*ed. Big T already did a great job with all the answers, so i can just agree to them.

I think all this is setting the stage for a major project that I think we all can partake in and enjoy! I, for one, am willing to lend my services to such a task, and I am thoroughly impressed by both X's and TronFAQ's knowledge base in figuring out these curiosities.

So, any progress on finding a way to release the source code? I'm dreaming, I know, but it doesn't hurt to ask! hahaha

Hi Guys,
Thanks for your encouraging replies and sharing your expertise and insights with me. As I’ve developed my understanding of what can and cannot be achieved, I see that my original design for a Tron-based MMO is not going to fly given the Jupiter Engine's limited command set and "hardcoded" environments. But having said that, I do have an idea that I think would still be cool (and hard) to try. It involves two maps hosted on two servers; the first is open to all, the second is password protected (see below).

[This mission is divided into two parts, or chapters. I will refer to these parts as Part 1, and Part 2 respectively when necessary. These missions are intended to be played by a group of 4 Players, or less if you want a greater challenge. Part 1 should not have a time limit imposed on it if possible. If a time limit is unavoidable, then set it to whatever the maximum time allowed for a Team Derez Match can be.]

Part 1 Plot: In the wake of the "Mobile Server Disaster" that ended fCon's ambitions in Tron 2.0, the company reorganized and began pouring resources into the development of its own A.I. program like Ma3a to try and solve the riddle of the correction algorithms for themselves. Unfortunately something went wrong, and the A.I. they developed went rogue and took over the hosting fCon Server. Fortunately, Turing Protocol software had been installed prior to the mishap, and it has successfully quarantined the A.I. in an encrypted core memory partition. But no one knows how long this measure will continue to hold the wily A.I., so fCon executives have appealed to Encom for assistance. Encom CEO, Alan Bradley, with concurrence from his Son, the Deputy VP in charge of Encom’s R&D division, has agreed to dispatch an Emergency Action team into the fCon server to deal with the rogue A.I. You are a member of that elite team.

Part 1 Layout: The server is circular in structure, and consists of three concentric Partitions forming an Outer ring, a Middle ring, and the encrypted Core Memory partition at the center. The Outer and Middle partitions are each further sub-divided into four, walled-off Sectors, each with a single archway at its far end that leads to the next Sector in the sequence (1 thru 8 respectively). These archways are protected by force fields that are bit-activated, and encrypted (Permission locked). The Player's arrive in Sector 1, automatically acquiring the Disc Primitive, and Y-Amp subroutine. To leave the Sector, the Players will need to locate the Archive Bin containing a single copy of Permission 2, and then find (and transfer power to) an activation bit in order to be able to de-activate the force field leading to sector 2. (This task is repeated for each Sector, with the Permission # needed always being the same as the # of the next Sector to be entered). The Player holding the Permission must be protected from being derezzed, since if they die, they take the permission with them! (Each permission is needed only once to get through the archway at the other end of the Sector in which it was found, so different Players can be the “ball carrier” in different Sectors.) Also in each Sector (except the last), the Players must find a passcode fragment imbedded in an email. Each fragment reads: “Encryption Seal fragment #n: ‘X’ – (Keep track of this).”, where n refers to the correct position of ‘X’ in the passcode, and where ‘X’ represents an ASCII character in the 8-character password needed to join the game server hosting Part 2 of this mission (described below). When any Player acquires an email fragment, an identical message gets sent to all the Players as a triggered event. The order of the fragments is not sequential, thus Players will need to write them down in their correct positions as the game progresses (like in a game of Hangman). Finally, in each Sector, Players will also be able to locate an Archive Bin containing four copies of a single, gold-build subroutine, which will help the Player negotiate the perils of the server more easily (I recommend the following sequence of subroutines: Sector 1 – Profiler; Sector 2 – Primitive Charge; 3 – Support Safeguard; 4 – Power Block; 5 – Sequencer; 6 – Submask; 7 – Ball Launcher; 8 – Truncate).

At the beginning of Sectors 2, 3 & 4, each Player will acquire another type of Primitive to use (Rod, Ball, & Mesh in that order). [I’m not sure how best to ensure that each player gets their new primitives without the potential of being deprived of it by an overzealous teammate who got there first, but if it can be done, then please set it up that way.]

As the Players enter the even-numbered Sectors, they automatically gain enough build points to acquire a Version upgrade, and the Subroutine Menu comes up for them immediately thereafter allowing them to upgrade their Performance Ratings before continuing on.

Each Sector has its share of Resource Hogs, ICP’s and other system defenders that become progressively tougher, better, and/or more numerous the farther along the Player’s get. Players can also meet friendly programs who can give hints on where to look for things they need to find in that Sector. Each Sector needs to have enough structures in it that the process of locating everything needed will take time, making the use of friendly program information a useful time saver.

In the final Sector (8), the Player’s need to defeat the Corrupted Kernel Assistant (and his thugs) to acquire Permission 1 from his core-dump, which is used to activate the bit socket next to the Encryption Seal leading into the Core Memory partition. Once activated, every Player will receive the final message containing the final character of the passcode in the same format as the earlier messages.
Players then log off of that server, and log on to the password protected server hosting Part 2 of this mission using the passcode they collected in Part 1.

Part 2 Plot: Having opened the Encryption Seal of the Core Memory Partition, the Player’s must confront and defeat the rogue A.I. before it realizes that its quarantine has been lifted, and can escape its confinement here. [This game should have its play time set at 35 minutes – 5 min. for pre-game prep, and 30 to accomplish the mission. If the game ends before the A.I. is defeated, it has realized that it can escape, and chooses to exercise that option rather than continue to oppose the Players.]

Part 2 Layout: The Core partition is a three-tiered tower of large cylindrical rooms. Movement from one room to the next is accomplished by de-activating the force field protecting the vertical Data Stream connecting them together. It goes without saying (but I’ll say it anyway) that the location of these Data Streams are to be found at the opposite end of the room from which it was entered. Within these large cylinder rooms are a number of smaller structures that each have multiple floors/rooms (though on a smaller scale), and the objects that the Player’s will need to acquire before being able to move up to the next level should be found towards the top/back of these smaller structures. [If this description seems vague, it is intentional, as I do not want to dictate too strictly how it ought to look – let the Map designers’ use their creativity to produce the particulars of each level’s layout. The main point is that it should be physically challenging for 4 Players to locate the object’s needed, and fend off the attacks of the system defenders, all within an approximate timeframe of 10 minutes or so per level.]

At the start of the Map, each player will receive enough build points to allow for four Version upgrades (the same number they received during Part 1 of the mission.) They will also begin the game with all of the primitives and gold-build subroutines they had access to in Part 1. [If these can be automatically given at the start of the game, that would be great, but if not, then there will need to be a series of Archive Bins near the starting point so they can go and retrieve them before commencing.]

As in Part 1, each exit is protected by an encrypted, bit-activated force field. The difference this time is that there are four Permissions to be found on each of the first two levels in the Core, only one of which will de-activate the field (the rest are Red Herrings). Players will still need to locate the bit that de-activates the force field, and there will be two Archive Bins per level that contain four copies of a gold-build subroutine (My picks: Level 1 – Triangulate & Corrode; Level 2 – & Megahurtz).

The third level of the Core is the Private Chamber of the Rogue A.I., “M3An1”. [If it is possible, I would love to see Ma3a’s TRON-induced, User Terminator Avatar used for this.] The space is wide open, and it’s a duel to the death (or until M3An1 realizes that it is free to leave.) M3An1 has full subroutine armor (or the NPC equivalent), unlimited energy, 4000 Health, and attacks with Prankster Bit, and Energy Claw. It will also summon two Seekers (one at a time) to aid it in fighting the Players. If the Players succeed in defeating the A.I. within the allotted time, they should receive a long-winded accolade that extols the magnitude of their accomplishment and the gratefulness of their employers for saving the world from such a dire predicament, yada, yada, yada… (I’ll figure something out for this.)

OK, so there you have it. Let me know if anything I’ve said can’t be done. As a final thought, I’d imagine that once these maps are created, if it is done right, it wouldn’t be all that hard to change up the passcode, or reshuffle the locations of the Archive Bins or subroutine options once in a while, extending its playability a bit more. Have a very Merry Christmas, fellas.

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